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Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+381|1788
lol this guy. america you can have him if you want. the worst sort of demagogue we currently have in uk politics.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 … curriculum

bastard.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,389|3120

The College Student Rebate Act is making its way through congress. It would require universities to spend 80% of student's tuition on education or else they would be required to refund all enrolled student's tuition. This is targeted at for profit schools like University of Phoenix that charges $30,000 a year and uses most of it to pay dividends on their stock. I doubt this will pass congress though.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|4250

Macbeth wrote:

The College Student Rebate Act is making its way through congress. It would require universities to spend 80% of student's tuition on education or else they would be required to refund all enrolled student's tuition. This is targeted at for profit schools like University of Phoenix that charges $30,000 a year and uses most of it to pay dividends on their stock. I doubt this will pass congress though.
Define "student education." What if they were building a new dining hall, hotel (UCLA hotel management school lulz) or football field? Does taht fall under education?
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2892|London, England
Or the President of the schools salary, the salaries of other administrators etc.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+381|1788

Macbeth wrote:

The College Student Rebate Act is making its way through congress. It would require universities to spend 80% of student's tuition on education or else they would be required to refund all enrolled student's tuition. This is targeted at for profit schools like University of Phoenix that charges $30,000 a year and uses most of it to pay dividends on their stock. I doubt this will pass congress though.
it's a good sentiment / aim in reform, but i don't know if it's totally in tune with the nature of the private research institution in america. the larger world-renowned ones basically operate as corporate entities in-themselves, with boards and shareholders and all sorts of financial investments spread around in a 'portfolio' to ensure the institution's longevity+diversity. look at stanford, for example, and its close ties to silicon valley. 80% on students is quite a ridiculously high number to aim to spend, every single year. what about years, for example like a few years back, when they had to rebuild the entire hospital/medical school facilities? that surely doesn't count as 'spending on students', to build a privately-operating hospital.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-22 09:20:14)

Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|4273|Toronto | Canada

my school operates on a similar basis where a pretty high percentage of tuition has to go to education (i dont remember the exact number off the top of my head) and any time they want to have a big splurge like that they hold a referendum.  i dont think one has ever failed so its worked out really well.  they cant spend the money needlessly but can still spend it if its in the students' interest.  we're having another one in september to spend $2 million on renovating the key picturesque building at u of t which is definitely going to pass.
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|3233
i'm going to post the video uzique mentioned in ee chats.

i posted this a year or so ago in an education related thread but it went right over the "STEM " and "america #1" groups.



so for a country that prides itself in scientific and technological accomplishments; it turns out the framework of our scientific establishment is built off the sweat of foreign intellects. and what does it insinuate about our education system when we can't even fill top tier positions that keep the country operational?
Macbeth
Banned
+2,389|3120

I am sure we would put out a lot more STEM majors if we were a developing country and those degrees were the only way out of poverty.
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+381|1788
it is kind of structural, on the level of a society's development. america's big push for STEM degrees was obviously in the post-ww2 boom years, when everything was go, and new technology and invention was helping to power the american technological gap over the rest of the (pretty much obliterated) developing world. when a country reaches a certain level of comfort, though, you tend to get people studying the more reflective and cultural degrees. it's definitely a luxury. i doubt there are many people growing up in india who can genuinely aspire, with any pragmatic sense, to go and study philosophy or ancient history at an american university. it just isn't the way up the ladder. with that said, western countries like the US and the UK do talk a lot nowadays about 'knowledge' and 'cultural' capital being just as operative parts of a nation's running/success as pure capital itself. the UK still stays afloat on the world level because it is essentially a place of educational and cultural prestige. so it's not as if the maturation into the luxuries of 'liberal arts reflection' are all bad and decadent.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-22 11:32:06)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2892|London, England

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

it is kind of structural, on the level of a society's development. america's big push for STEM degrees was obviously in the post-ww2 boom years, when everything was go, and new technology and invention was helping to power the american technological gap over the rest of the (pretty much obliterated) developing world. when a country reaches a certain level of comfort, though, you tend to get people studying the more reflective and cultural degrees. it's definitely a luxury. i doubt there are many people growing up in india who can genuinely aspire, with any pragmatic sense, to go and study philosophy or ancient history at an american university. it just isn't the way up the ladder. with that said, western countries like the US and the UK do talk a lot nowadays about 'knowledge' and 'cultural' capital being just as operative parts of a nation's running/success as pure capital itself. the UK still stays afloat on the world level because it is essentially a place of educational and cultural prestige. so it's not as if the maturation into the luxuries of 'liberal arts reflection' are all bad and decadent.
No, you're afloat because you are the banking and investment hub of Europe. All those MBA's you denigrate are putting food on your table.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+662|3077|Toronto

Jay wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

it is kind of structural, on the level of a society's development. america's big push for STEM degrees was obviously in the post-ww2 boom years, when everything was go, and new technology and invention was helping to power the american technological gap over the rest of the (pretty much obliterated) developing world. when a country reaches a certain level of comfort, though, you tend to get people studying the more reflective and cultural degrees. it's definitely a luxury. i doubt there are many people growing up in india who can genuinely aspire, with any pragmatic sense, to go and study philosophy or ancient history at an american university. it just isn't the way up the ladder. with that said, western countries like the US and the UK do talk a lot nowadays about 'knowledge' and 'cultural' capital being just as operative parts of a nation's running/success as pure capital itself. the UK still stays afloat on the world level because it is essentially a place of educational and cultural prestige. so it's not as if the maturation into the luxuries of 'liberal arts reflection' are all bad and decadent.
No, you're afloat because you are the banking and investment hub of Europe. All those MBA's you denigrate are putting food on your table.
"I know how to tell people what to do. They're the ones who know how to do it." - My grandfather, MBA, said in an interview with myself age 12.

This self aggrandizement goes too far sometimes Jay. The MBAs are another cog, sure, but they're not the gods you like to believe. I'd take the economics PhD over a dime-a-dozen MBA any day.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|4224|Tampa Bay Florida

wikipedia wrote:

as the country industrialized and companies sought out scientific approaches to management.
Sounds like social science to me

Last edited by Spearhead (2013-03-22 13:22:53)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2892|London, England

Pochsy wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

it is kind of structural, on the level of a society's development. america's big push for STEM degrees was obviously in the post-ww2 boom years, when everything was go, and new technology and invention was helping to power the american technological gap over the rest of the (pretty much obliterated) developing world. when a country reaches a certain level of comfort, though, you tend to get people studying the more reflective and cultural degrees. it's definitely a luxury. i doubt there are many people growing up in india who can genuinely aspire, with any pragmatic sense, to go and study philosophy or ancient history at an american university. it just isn't the way up the ladder. with that said, western countries like the US and the UK do talk a lot nowadays about 'knowledge' and 'cultural' capital being just as operative parts of a nation's running/success as pure capital itself. the UK still stays afloat on the world level because it is essentially a place of educational and cultural prestige. so it's not as if the maturation into the luxuries of 'liberal arts reflection' are all bad and decadent.
No, you're afloat because you are the banking and investment hub of Europe. All those MBA's you denigrate are putting food on your table.
"I know how to tell people what to do. They're the ones who know how to do it." - My grandfather, MBA, said in an interview with myself age 12.

This self aggrandizement goes too far sometimes Jay. The MBAs are another cog, sure, but they're not the gods you like to believe. I'd take the economics PhD over a dime-a-dozen MBA any day.
I'm not saying they're gods, I'm just saying that he should be realistic about who is paying the taxes that subsidize his college education. He was right that it's a luxury to study things like literature and art, but he should also give credit to the people that actually do 'real work' and pay the bills. It's not prestige that puts food in peoples bellies, it's money and the people that earn it.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+662|3077|Toronto

Jay wrote:

I'm not saying they're gods, I'm just saying that he should be realistic about who is paying the taxes that subsidize his college education. He was right that it's a luxury to study things like literature and art, but he should also give credit to the people that actually do 'real work' and pay the bills. It's not prestige that puts food in peoples bellies, it's money and the people that earn it.
Well, technically speaking the prestige of the tourism industry is exactly what puts food on the table. The curators of museums and galleries don't hold MBAs, but somehow they survive (and often well). I can safely say that almost all of the wealth puts zero food on the table for anyone except the bankers (similarly rich). It doesn't help society. I'm not saying you have to help society, but I am saying you should accept that you don't.

It comes down to one thing only in my opinion: talent. Some people suck, other people try to fake it, and some people have it. The dollars don't always tell the tale, either. Old money isn't necessarily good money.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2892|London, England
They don't put food on the table? Are they stuffing all that money in a vault behind padlock and key? No, the money is taxed, and the rest goes to paying rent, and buying expensive suits and all the other crap they like. That money then works it's way around, gets taxed some more, and then the government turns around and subsidizes educations for people like uzi. The money they don't spend ends up in bank accounts, where it is loaned out to people wanting to buy homes, who give their money to construction workers, who in turn buy goods from grocers etc. Frankly, your view on economics is very similar to Ayn Rand, who made the stupid assumption that every person is their own island and that we're not all linked together by economic transactions we make on a daily basis. We're all in the web, and we all feel the pain to some extent when shit goes bad. It's why a banking crisis can cause a world-wide depression instead of just affecting bankers.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,389|3120

MBAs and business degrees are going the way of law degrees. There are way too many lawyers already because everyone saw it as the ticket to wealth and success. Supply and demand. Once the congress decides to give visas to foreign STEM degree earners in this latest round of immigration reform then wages for engineers are going to bottom out. You will find yourself 40 with 3 kids, a large mortgage, and replaced by a team of Chinese kids who are related to me by marriage and willing to kill themselves for a quarter of your salary.

All things considered you should do what makes you happy.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2892|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

MBAs and business degrees are going the way of law degrees. There are way too many lawyers already because everyone saw it as the ticket to wealth and success. Supply and demand. Once the congress decides to give visas to foreign STEM degree earners in this latest round of immigration reform then wages for engineers are going to bottom out. You will find yourself 40 with 3 kids, a large mortgage, and replaced by a team of Chinese kids who are related to me by marriage and willing to kill themselves for a quarter of your salary.

All things considered you should do what makes you happy.
Nah, you're clueless, honestly.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,389|3120

Liberal art majors subsidize all the other majors. All you need for a history class is a lecturer and a projector. No labs or machines needed.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,389|3120

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

MBAs and business degrees are going the way of law degrees. There are way too many lawyers already because everyone saw it as the ticket to wealth and success. Supply and demand. Once the congress decides to give visas to foreign STEM degree earners in this latest round of immigration reform then wages for engineers are going to bottom out. You will find yourself 40 with 3 kids, a large mortgage, and replaced by a team of Chinese kids who are related to me by marriage and willing to kill themselves for a quarter of your salary.

All things considered you should do what makes you happy.
Nah, you're clueless, honestly.
You don't think you are replaceable?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2892|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

MBAs and business degrees are going the way of law degrees. There are way too many lawyers already because everyone saw it as the ticket to wealth and success. Supply and demand. Once the congress decides to give visas to foreign STEM degree earners in this latest round of immigration reform then wages for engineers are going to bottom out. You will find yourself 40 with 3 kids, a large mortgage, and replaced by a team of Chinese kids who are related to me by marriage and willing to kill themselves for a quarter of your salary.

All things considered you should do what makes you happy.
Nah, you're clueless, honestly.
You don't think you are replaceable?
Not really, no. Any monkey can do CAD drawings, sure, hell, most of the work is done by design programs already. Draftsmen went the way of the dinosaur unless they are protected by a strong union like electrical workers are. You could hire a roomful of Chinese introverts and they'll produce flawless drawings for much less than I would work for, but that's the thing, they're introverts. You'd probably be surprised based on the type of students that normally walk the halls in engineering schools, but the companies that hire engineers go out of their way to hire the ones that can actually talk to people without wetting themselves. They're the ones that become project managers and interact with customers, you wouldn't want a Chinese kid doing that.

Besides, I'm in a protected industry firewalled behind licensure requirements. Only a licensed engineer can sign off on drawings, and only signed drawings can be used for construction. The project I've been working on with my current company is coming to a close so I tossed out my resume last week and I've already had four interviews and two job offers. I'm not worried
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
RTHKI
MOTOGPGPGPGPGPGPGP
+1,615|4271|THE X GAMES

Macbeth wrote:

Liberal art majors subsidize all the other majors. All you need for a history class is a lecturer and a projector. No labs or machines needed.
ok
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/6644/Xj4f2.png
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|4273|Toronto | Canada

Macbeth wrote:

Liberal art majors subsidize all the other majors. All you need for a history class is a lecturer and a projector. No labs or machines needed.
Really? Books and libraries cost a fortune.  Also, most engineering programs pay significantly higher tuition.  Plus science departments have industry contracts and build equipment for other departments at universities.  That's total nonsense.  Most of the equipment you use at university has been there for years and years and cost next to nothing compared to salaries. 

Other than massive machines like particle accelerators and the like, but those actually serve a purpose and aren't used by undergrads.  So its irrelevant to your argument
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2892|London, England
Besides, reports of Asian dominance in STEM are horribly overblown. See: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in … maths.html
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|4224|Tampa Bay Florida
What do you build, Jay?  Skyscrapers?  Bagels?  Homeless shelters?
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|4250

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:


Nah, you're clueless, honestly.
You don't think you are replaceable?
Not really, no. Any monkey can do CAD drawings, sure, hell, most of the work is done by design programs already. Draftsmen went the way of the dinosaur unless they are protected by a strong union like electrical workers are. You could hire a roomful of Chinese introverts and they'll produce flawless drawings for much less than I would work for, but that's the thing, they're introverts. You'd probably be surprised based on the type of students that normally walk the halls in engineering schools, but the companies that hire engineers go out of their way to hire the ones that can actually talk to people without wetting themselves. They're the ones that become project managers and interact with customers, you wouldn't want a Chinese kid doing that.

Besides, I'm in a protected industry firewalled behind licensure requirements. Only a licensed engineer can sign off on drawings, and only signed drawings can be used for construction. The project I've been working on with my current company is coming to a close so I tossed out my resume last week and I've already had four interviews and two job offers. I'm not worried
You're pretty spot on about chinese kids being introverts. I blame the parents pushing their kids k-12 who go to school from 7am-5pm EVERY DAY, come home with a ton of homework and prepping for the weekly exams. They wonder why their kids end up being burned out and producing shitty results in uni.
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