Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|3885
free will and the idea of 'god's design' and it being 'god's way' is a paradoxical construct. free will implies you can do anything at any moment based on your own impulse or caprice; omnipotence and the idea of god designing and knowing all things implies a deterministic and fatalistic theological outlook. the only way out of this little logical black-hole is to create a unique brand of theological fatalism/determinism that doesn't actually involve time. if you remove god from a chronological and temporal plane and instead posit his wisdom as a form of metaphysical immanence, then you can technically have 'free will' as a human being whilst it being 'god's way' too. this kinda works by abolishing the linear-temporal model of a 'plan' and instead rhetorically somersaults to state that god's wisdom and plan is constantly manifesting itself and reinventing itself at every single millisecond, according to the multiplicand combinatorial possibilities of everyday reality.

phew now there's a headfuck.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|3885

Adams_BJ wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Giving us free will and being omnipotent are not in contradiction.

He knows we will choose our own path based on having free will and gives us that freedom to choose. It is not predetermined what our path is...unless you are a Quaker, I suppose.
so he send you knowingly into an eternity of torture?

how do you choose something that we have no choice in? We end at A, or B. He knows which one. We don't get to change it, it was known before we were born.
see my last post (i didn't read any responses after feos's before posting my own). your post essentially assumes that god's plan is a static, unchanging thing from the beginning of time to the end of days. determinism/fatalism doesn't have to be that structured.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108
The religions of Papua are legit. Yam gods and magic. Every life form has a spirit. When someone dies it must have been caused by the will of some evil spirit. In certain societies (note that there are hundreds of distinct cultures/languages on the island due to the isolation each village is subject to high in the dense jungle mountains) deaths are attributed to the work of some some evil human spirit. Revenge murders and cannibalism are present in some communities. Eating the body of another gives you that person's strength.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|3826|'Murka

I see my kids put themselves into positions that I know will result in them getting punished in the end. I don't stop them, unless I think they will get hurt. But then again, I am far more directly involved in their lives than the scriptures tell us God is. And I'm not all-powerful.

Point being, I give them room to grow.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108
Worry about whether or not god is watching when you are dead. In the mean time this is the world of mortals.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|3826|'Murka

I don't.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108
Just posting as a general statement. I wasn't addressing you in particular.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2773|London, England

Adams_BJ wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Why would you think those two positions are in contradiction?
how aren't they? Say take dropping a rock for example. I hold a rock above my head and say that if it stays floating when I let go, it will go and become a big mountain or whatever rocks aspire to. However, if it drops, it will be crushed and used to seal the road on a very busy motor way. I will give the rock free will to do what it wants. However, I know full well it is going to drop well before I even drop it, so its fate is sealed. It hits the ground and it gets crushed up.

Same as when god make a person. He says if you live a good life you get to go to heaven, if you become evil and a sinner you get to suffer for eternity in hell, yet he already knows before he even makes you where you will end up.

So what is it? Do we have free will and he doesn't know all, or does he know all, and we don't have any free will at all, so god is just cruel and likes people to suffer for eternity in hell through no fault of their own?
You are Calvinist I presume?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|3885
calvinism is about predestination, i.e. entry into heaven and the 'worth' of your soul, not theological fatalism in the ontic sense...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2773|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Giving us free will and being omnipotent are not in contradiction.

He knows we will choose our own path based on having free will and gives us that freedom to choose. It is not predetermined what our path is...unless you are a Quaker, I suppose.
Quakers believe in free will, Calvinists believe in predestination.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108
I find it hard to understand how a person becomes so bound to the fantastical words of other men. I say find answers for yourself. Explore your mind and the cosmos. The bits of truth that are revealed to those who seek them have the potential to be vastly more profound than any book or sermon.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2773|London, England

Uzique wrote:

calvinism is about predestination, i.e. entry into heaven and the 'worth' of your soul, not theological fatalism in the ontic sense...
They're related. I see no difference between fate and predestination. Both assume we are marionettes.

Last edited by Jay (2011-12-23 06:25:58)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108
Earth herself provides answers.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|3885

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

calvinism is about predestination, i.e. entry into heaven and the 'worth' of your soul, not theological fatalism in the ontic sense...
They're related. I see no difference between fate and predestination. Both assume we are marionettes.
you really see no difference? predestination is where you end up in the end. fate is a deterministic existential outlook, i.e. your day to day life, what will happen to you in your lifetime, what you will do. predestination is just about that: the destination. fate involves the events of your life in a far more intrinsic way. you could be one of the heathen not destined to enter heaven and still believe in 'fate'.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2773|London, England

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

calvinism is about predestination, i.e. entry into heaven and the 'worth' of your soul, not theological fatalism in the ontic sense...
They're related. I see no difference between fate and predestination. Both assume we are marionettes.
you really see no difference? predestination is where you end up in the end. fate is a deterministic existential outlook, i.e. your day to day life, what will happen to you in your lifetime, what you will do. predestination is just about that: the destination. fate involves the events of your life in a far more intrinsic way. you could be one of the heathen not destined to enter heaven and still believe in 'fate'.
They both assume intelligent oversight to guide or push you along the correct path.

I'm no theologian though, I remember very little from high school religion class
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108
Highschool religion class? Did they teach you any doctrine outside the bible?
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|3885
i didn't seriously study predestination or any sort of determinism/fatalism until my second year as an undergrad. i think um it was hogg and the whole presbyt/calvinist angle.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-12-23 06:51:50)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2773|London, England

Superior Mind wrote:

Highschool religion class? Did they teach you any doctrine outside the bible?
We learned Greek, Roman, Jewish and Egyptian religions in Western Civ class, but no, there was no exploration of modern religions. It was a Quakerism class designed to teach 10th graders about the faith their school was founded on. Calvinists believing in predestination is literally the only thing I remember about that particular sect other than that they started in Switzerland and flourished in Scotland.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|3885

Jay wrote:

Superior Mind wrote:

Highschool religion class? Did they teach you any doctrine outside the bible?
We learned Greek, Roman, Jewish and Egyptian religions in Western Civ class, but no, there was no exploration of modern religions. It was a Quakerism class designed to teach 10th graders about the faith their school was founded on. Calvinists believing in predestination is literally the only thing I remember about that particular sect other than that they started in Switzerland and flourished in Scotland.
it's all jansenism, anyway
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108

Jay wrote:

Superior Mind wrote:

Highschool religion class? Did they teach you any doctrine outside the bible?
We learned Greek, Roman, Jewish and Egyptian religions in Western Civ class, but no, there was no exploration of modern religions. It was a Quakerism class designed to teach 10th graders about the faith their school was founded on. Calvinists believing in predestination is literally the only thing I remember about that particular sect other than that they started in Switzerland and flourished in Scotland.
Judaism is extant.

So you went to a Quaker private school? Was the Westen civ class one in the same as your religion class?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2773|London, England

Superior Mind wrote:

Jay wrote:

Superior Mind wrote:

Highschool religion class? Did they teach you any doctrine outside the bible?
We learned Greek, Roman, Jewish and Egyptian religions in Western Civ class, but no, there was no exploration of modern religions. It was a Quakerism class designed to teach 10th graders about the faith their school was founded on. Calvinists believing in predestination is literally the only thing I remember about that particular sect other than that they started in Switzerland and flourished in Scotland.
Judaism is extant.

So you went to a Quaker private school? Was the Westen civ class one in the same as your religion class?
no, western civ was just freshman history class. we didn't go into the religious aspects of the cultures with any great depth, it was just superficial 'Ra was the Sun God' of Egypt.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108
So what was taught in your religion class?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2773|London, England
SM, the only time I think about religion is when one of these threads comes up. It's honestly not a Burning Question™ for me.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,959|2773|London, England

Superior Mind wrote:

So what was taught in your religion class?
The tenets of the Quaker faith. Seven deadly sins, plain speech, plain dress, and sex, lots and lots of talk about sex with Mr. Lape, the schools only Quaker teacher. It covered a bit of Christian history from Gnostics to Catholics and Orthodox, but mostly focused on the Post-Luther.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Superior Mind
Member
+1,730|4108
That's fine. In studying extinct religions of the ancient Mediterranean and near east one realizes how plagiarism is a continual trend.


e: So, do you maintain your plainness?

Last edited by Superior Mind (2011-12-23 07:12:13)

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